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Our Mission: To Nurture Spirituality, Build Caring Community,and Work Courageously for Peace with Justice and Mercy

Posted 11/5/14 by Jennifer Gahnstrom



Committee Minutes


·       For a list of members of Committees, Task Forces & Teams please see the webpage titled “Committees.”


·       Minutes are always taken at Church Council, Finance & Trustees meetings and at Church Conferences & All Church meetings.


·       Minutes are sometimes taken at Task Force &Team meetings.


·       Minutes are posted by meeting date and remain on the website for 3-4 months, older minutes are available by contacting the office.


·       Your interest, input and attendance at these meetings are always welcome.


·       If you want more information, please contact the committee chair, its members or the Administrator.



Minutes of Finance Committee Meeting-

May 12, 2014


Present were:  Church administrator Jennifer Gahnstrom, Pastor Walter Lockhart, committee chair Lulu Phillips, and members Jan Werness and Carole Megarry


We reviewed the financial report for April 30, 2014.  It was noted that we are running a shortfall or approximately $3,000 per month, or $35,000 per year.  While it is currently feasible to cover this shortfall by accessing reserve funds, such a shortfall cannot be allowed to continue.  Either income must be increased or expenses cut.  We currently average about 78 persons in attendance on Sunday mornings, with approximately 150 persons attending at some point during the year.


Lulu will address the congregation on Sunday, May 18 on need to increase income or cut expenses.   Also on that date will be the potluck after church to discuss what to do with the parsonage.


As to the meals program, Walter noted that he has plans to move the program to self- sufficiency.  This may include partnering with UMN Wesley, Epworth church or others.  Other ways to raise funds would be to have a special offering or special meal.  The Community Meals fund will be used to track income and expenditures, including  the costs of equipment and necessary licensure.  Walter has completed the Safe Serve licensure at a cost of $175.  Other licensures may be necessary if the venue will be used for non-church functions.


As for the retainage account, we now owe approximately $6,000; however, there is water in the basement and other punch list items yet to be completed or adjusted by the builders.  Walter hopes that all matters related to the construction of the building will be resolved by September.  At that point we will need to move funds from the capital to building account in order to make the final payment.


We discussed in general, the May rummage sale.  It went very well in the new venue, (best ever receipts of some $3,600) and there is reason to believe might have been even better had it not taken place over the Mothers’ Day and fishing opener weekend.  We could use more tables and better racks for displays.  Lulu has created a list of suggestions for future rummage sale.  We set the dates of October 20-25 for the fall rummage sale, with set up days being October 20 and 21 and sale days thereafter.


Next Finance Committee meeting is set for June 11, 2014 at 3 p.m.


Minutes by Carole Megarry




Trustees Meeting Minutes

May 14, 2014


Those present:  Ed Ed Mueller, Jennifer Gahnstrom, Al Hildenbrand, Jim Stark, Harlan Seelhof


Minutes  from the last meeting were read and approved.


Ed Ed moved and Jim seconded that kitchen work and materials be taken from the "Meals" Profit and Loss "Class" as presented on a P&L printout, Jan 1 - May 14, 2014, from Jennifer.  Passed unanimously.


Ed Ed moved and Jim  seconded that the retainage to Watson Forsberg be paid out of the "Build" Profit and Loss "Class" as presented on a P&L printout, Jan 1 - May 14,2014, thus reducing the "Build Class" to $0.00, and to then close out the Build Class.  Passed unanimously.


Jennifer wants a doorbell.  Ideas were discussed.  Al moved and Ed Ed seconded purchasing a wireless bell with buttons and trying it out.


Nancy next door to the Parsonage reminded us about the dented downspout repair promised from last year's driveway incident.

Jennifer introduced the Trustees to a request for free use of Walker.  Transforming Families, , and Jennifer propose a two hour meeting once a month, second Saturdays, meetings only and no use of the kitchen, scheduling and room flexibility as driven by needs of future paying renters of Walker.  Given these constraints, the Trustees have no objections to extending free access to the Walker property.  So moved by Jim and Ed Ed seconded;  passed unanimously


Fire system monitoring and inspection one year contract was presented and read.  Agreeing to the contract and signing was moved by Al and seconded by Ed Ed.  Passed unanimously

Al and Ed Ed gave a report of the basement water problem, and inspection last Friday by

Janelle of Watson Forsberg and Mindy Micheals of Kaas Wilson of the same, after the fact.  Al has been charged by Mindy to contact her immediately upon any water being seen seeping in the basement so that she can rush over and examine it first hand.  Al asks that any report of water in the basement of Walker be forwarded and / or copied to him, immediately upon receipt by anyone so knowing.


Jennifer reported to Ed Ed that the west Fellowship double door panic bars don't latch securely to the door frame.  Ed Ed inspected and will report to Jennifer that it is a Warranty issue for the installing contractor.


The new Hatco water super heater for the kitchen dishwasher has been looked at by the manufacturer repair technician and parts ordered.  The factory technician is due to replace parts and repair the Hatco super heater so that it will perform to Health Department requirements.




Minutes of the Church Conference

May 18, 2014


This conference was called for the purpose of deciding what to do with the property at 3605 15th Avenue South.


Present were: EdEd Mueller, Julia Phillips, Janet Werness, Conrad deFiebre, Steve Sandberg, Steve Cobian, K.C. Bretzke, Dianne O’Donnell, Fred Glazer, Allen Hillenbrand, Carole Megarry, and Greg Garman.  The meeting was chaired by Pastor Walter Lockhart.


The Motion before the conference was as follows:


Authorize the board of Trustees of Walker Community UMC to sell the church parsonage located at 3605 15th Ave. So., Minneapolis, MN 55407.  The trustees will need to gain the approval of the Twin Cities District Board of Church and Location.

Authorize using the proceeds of sale to pay off the loan against the parsonage and pay for any costs incurred while holding the property for sale since the church office moved out at the end of December, 2013.

Authorize the Finance Committee to safely invest the remaining of the funds in an insured account that preserves the principal.  These funds will remain separate from church funds and no principal or interest will be spent until a church conference approves the expenditures.

It was noted that while we could probably resume a relationship with Simpson Housing Services, which historically resulted in gross rent of approximately $800 per month and net income of approximately $400 per month, we currently have no individual trustee willing and able to provide the labor, equipment and materials necessary to maintain the property, which we formerly had.  It was also noted that due to a $20,000 sewer repair in recent years, even the “net” income from the property had largely been offset by that one large expense.

Some raised the question of whether it might be feasible to rent the property out at market rate and function as a traditional for-profit landlord.  Little information was available about what that market rate rent might be, what management expenses would be involved, and what taxes might be anticipated.


A vote was taken.  Nine votes were cast in favor of the motion.  No votes were cast against it.  There were three abstentions.


It was noted that the motion does not require the immediate listing of the property.  If anyone has a plan for retaining the property, that plan must be presented to the trustees via EdEd Mueller not later than July 1, 2014.  If the trustees find that an alternative plan is viable, the issue of whether to proceed with the listing and sale or to retain the property will be resolved between trustees and Finance Committee.


Minutes prepared by Carole Megarry.



Walker Church Council

May 27, 2014


Present: Walter Lockhart, Al Hildenbrand, Jan Werness, Steve Sandberg, Greg Garman, K.C. Bretzke, Nancy Larsen.


The minutes were approved as read.


Walter stated that we are living beyond our means. After Walter gets back from sabbatical in the fall, we will need to cut our 2015 Budget. Jan recommended selling the parsonage. Walter said he could argue for or against it, either way. The fact that Wayne might not be here to act as landlord is a consideration.


The Gay Pride Parade contingent will be headed up by North Oaks this year.


While Walter is gone Greg will be handling pastoral care. Walter will be available for hospice and funerals. 


Walter noted that the Peace Post is stored in GradyLee Shapiro's garage. 


K.C. stated that the Staff Parish Relations Committee is working on revising a Safe Church Policy. They are trying to strike a balance between being a welcoming church and the safety of children and vulnerable adults. This means writing a compact with each for each offender. Steve said we need to set a date now for a presentation on this topic with relevant speakers. Allyson will contact possible speakers.


Al reported for the Trustees. Heavy rains created leaks in the new church. The thermostats are not working properly. The boiler didn't work last winter. The parsonage is ready to sell. 


The rummage sale raised $3800.


We discussed rentals of the new building. K.C. stated we need a site manager for rentals. Greg said we need Walker person here every time the kitchen is used. Walter stated that instructions for the dishwasher and the garbage disposal will be posted. Jan said we need to have a meeting about rentals. Greg added that when there is a group formed as the result of this meeting, they need to meet with Jennifer, the Trustees, and the Finance Committee. Allyson said we need to form a Marketing Committee to reach out to arts groups and the broader Powderhorn community about rentals. Walter suggested launching this committee at the July Council meeting.


Steve advocated for updating the Walker web site. Our webmaster Jim Feldman is open to suggestions. 


Greg said we should have Spanish classes at Walker.


Steve wanted facts and figures as to the pros and cons of selling the parsonage. Walter provided some figures. We discussed whether to sell the parsonage or rent it to Simpson Housing. It was moved, seconded and passed to authorize the Trustees to affirm the proposal to the Minnesota Conference to sell the parsonage if rental to Simpson Housing is not viable, to be decided by July 1.


Jera Peterson is one of the people that supervises Sunday School. His girlfriend Lisa assists him by volunteering. She needs a background check done. K.C. will email Jera about this.


The meeting was adjourned.


Respectfully submitted,


Nancy Larsen

Church Council Secretary



Minutes of Finance Committee Meeting- June 11, 2014


Present were:  Church administrator Jennifer Gahnstrom, committee chair Lulu Phillips, members Jan Werness and Carole Megarry, Al Hildenbrand (Trustees) and Steve Sandberg.  (Pastor Lockhart is on sabbatical leave.)


The minutes of the meeting of May 12 were approved.


A discussion ensued regarding the decision-making process for the potential sale of the parsonage property.  Jennifer had prepared a summary of the various expenses and income for that property from the time it ceased to be used as a “parsonage” per se through the current year.  Steve pointed out that this information had not been made available to the congregation in general either prior to or at the Church Conference held May 22, 2014.  It was noted that these figures do not include labor performed by Wayne Bailey or services he paid for without reimbursement.  No one was able to say the number of hours he contributed or the cost of services he paid. 


While at least one member of the community has experience owning and managing rental property, it was noted there had been no offer by him or anyone to contribute such services.  Walter and other members of the trustees apparently had some discussion as to what a for-profit operation of the building might generate as to income and expenses, including management fees, real property tax and income tax.


Steve raised the issue of what marketing efforts will be needed to grow the community which reasonably could yield increased income.  He noted that the website is outdated and needs improvement.  Discussion followed as to what is currently updated on the website and what needs work.  The website is currently without a coordinator.  Steve is acquainted with a woman who has experience managing websites and he agreed to contact her to see if she might be available for advice or services.


It was suggested that we explore forming a marketing committee, and that JG put into this into the weekly announcements and request that anyone interested should contact her.

Steve noted our new facility should be useful in fundraising through hosting dances and benefits.  JG noted that we need more site managers if we are going to have more activities in the building.  JG will ask for volunteer site managers.  A training session should be held so the new managers know what is expected of them and parties renting the premises.


The Finance Report of May 31, 2014, and the current Operating Fund Financial Report were reviewed and approved.


An Art Fair is on the calendar for November 22 and 23, 2014.  We will need a coordinator.


Next Finance Committee meeting is set for ______________at 3 p.m.


Minutes by Carole Megarry


Trustees Meeting Minutes

June 12, 2014


Those present:  Ed Ed Mueller, Jennifer Gahnstrom, Al Hildenbrand, Wayne Bailey, Harlan Seelhof, Lu Lu Phillips

Minutes  from the last meeting were read and approved.

Jennifer updated the Walker Funds Report as of May 31, 2014

Jennifer reported on rentals and the most recent by "Anna" leaving behind beer cans (found by Ignasio).  Jennifer will not rent to her again.

Jennifer reported that a discussion is taking place about the position of and storage of the chairs.  Steve Sandberg is to have a meeting following Celebration.

Al reported on the doorbell, dishwasher, disposal, superheater, HVAC problems and internet connection, Water in the basement W-F & Kaas Wilson witnessed, file compilation, W-F training videos  being corrupt.

Parsonage possible sale was discussed.  Dianne O'Donnel is having conflicting prices for the property coming from software that shouldn't do it.

Wireless FA monitor equipment bid from Gilbert is still needed.

Wayne reports that if the parsonage is sold he won't stay in town.  (ha)

Ed Ed expressed concern for Operation and Maintenance list of tasks be generated.




Trustees Meeting Minutes

July 9, 2014


Those present:  Ed Ed Mueller, Jennifer Gahnstrom, Al Hildenbrand, Wayne Bailey, Harlan Seelhoff, Lu Lu Phillips, Greg Garmen


Al reported on the progress with getting the excess heating of the building to stop.  Link Wilson of Kaas Wilson has enlisted the assistance of Ken Kendle, the Walker project mechanical engineer, to work with Trane on solving the problem.  Al also reported that the primary circulating pump exercise rotation is not occurring and was included with the report to Watson-Forsberg and Kaas Wilson.


Minutes from the last meeting were read and approved.


Greg Garmen raised two things for the Kitchen Cabinet.  #1)  Paper cups or dishwasher cups at the Community Meal?  The Trustees returned this to the Kitchen Cabinet unanswered.  #2) 


Deb Ramage is connected with a CSA.  Can Jennifer help with the overseeing of Walker as a drop off point.  The Trustees feel that someone else from Walker should step up to assist in the ongoing operation of the CSA.


Jennifer updated the Rental Policy by increasing the fee for larger parties in the Dining Hall.  Ignacio had suggested that the fee was too low.


Jennifer reported that Sarah Dagg really wants an answer of moving in to the new Walker. 

Free use of the building was considered.  After considering many examples and possibilities, a minimum fee was moved by Jim and seconded by Ed Ed.  Passed unanimously.


Pastor Daniel or Shabach Tabernacle missed a meeting with the Church Mutual held at Walker during office hours.  No call had been given to Jennifer to set up the meeting.


Jim moved and Wayne seconded starting the sale of the Parsonage and asking Dianne O'Donnell to be the Realtor.  Passed unanimously.


Al will contact Dianne O’Donnell to ask if she will be the realtor for the selling of the Parsonage. 


Al will contact Rev. Larry Nielsen, chair of the Minnesota UMC Board of Church, Location and Building, to start the process of Conference approval of the Parsonage sale.


Lu Lu reports that Walker (via Walter) has submitted to Metro West Builders for a grant for a sound system.  She is a member of the Builders.  Wayne volunteered to attend the next Builders meeting to represent Walker’s application.


Minutes by Al Hildenbrand




Walker Church Finance Committee

July 10,2014


Present: Lulu Philips, Jan Werness, Jennifer Gahnstrom


Financial Reports - We reviewed the financial reports and noted how income continues to lag far behind expenses.


Rentals - We reviewed the rentals and the income they have generated.  Jennifer brought the rental policy which we went over.  The price guidelines appear appropriate.  The policy and prices will be reviewed periodically and adjusted as needed once we have more experience renting.


A question was raised about renting to a non-profit business.  Jan will check out what, if any, tax implications this will have for Walker.


Parsonage – No one has brought forward to the Finance Committee a proposal to keep the parsonage.  The deadline for proposals to go to Ed Ed was July 1st.


Fiscal Agent for Empty Bowls - Jennifer listed the tasks she will need to do for this.  The majority of the financial work will be dealing with checks for individual donations and sending receipts as required by IRS.


The fiscal agent contract we used in the past burned up.  It had not been updated for a long time. Jan will start a draft for a new contract and distribute it to other committee members.


Fundraisers - Rummage sale will be third full week of October; set-up begins on October 20th. A silent auction will be held on December 13th.


Vacation - Lulu will be gone from 8/20/14 to 9/13/14 and from 9/25/14 to 10/10/14.  She will miss 2 trustees meetings.  Other finance committee members can attend if they want, but Lulu didn’t feel it was necessary for another member to attend.


Future meetings - All meetings will begin at 3:00 pm.

August 13th, September 17th. October 15th, November 12th, December 10th


Minutes by Jan Werness


Events Task Force Minutes

(Task Force of the Trustees)

July 22, 2014

Present: Steve Sandberg, Jennifer Gahnstrom, Anne Tiller, Greg Garman, Mary Parker


These questions were raised and sometimes answered:

            How to find out what’s going on every day at Walker: Walker Church Calendar can be found on our website and is kept up to date by Jennifer. Jennifer will post events on Facebook if you send them to her.


            What’s happening with a sound system for sanctuary? How much would that cost? We need a good one if we have musical groups coming in.


            How is the completion of the kitchen coming along?


            We need a Wedding Coordinator so we can rent to more weddings.

Any suggestions, discussion?


            Anne Tiller: Can I have regular showings of Bioneers DVDs in the sanctuary, with a potluck after? Answer: Yes!


            Kristine Smith: (via Steve S.) Suggests having a monthly music concert in the sanctuary using a known musical group as a draw.


Then we got into a lengthy discussion of Communications (i.e. website, Facebook and all forms of marketing).


A Communications Task Force was suggested and the following people were suggested as members: Jennifer, Steve S., Deb Ramage, Jim Feldman (current webmaster) and Al Hildenbrand.


This task force would do the following:

            Decide policy about what’s public and what’s not on website and Facebook

            Discuss and oversee creation of an updated webpage

            Educate the congregation in use of Facebook as a way to promote dissemination of information about events at Walker.


Also discussed at this meeting:


            We are looking for “follow through” on the many many ideas we come up with as a community in our “visioning” sessions!

            We are in large part an aging congregation. We seem tired. Who wants to take initiative anymore?

            Walker member attendance is low at activist events held at Walker.

            Jennifer Gahnstrom is mainly responsible for the continued recognition of Walker Church as an activist organization because she actively works to rent to activist groups and she oversees their use of the building. She has been a constant in this regard for many years and her good reputation is known in the activist communities.


            Mary gave a list of “coming attractions” at Walker. And she gave a little  pep talk about keeping our eye on the “prize”, which is the increased good health and joy of our community. We can’t let ourselves be pressed down by the concrete slab of history. If we turn our attention to what’s best for our community and not for individuals, we can bust through any blockages!


Minutes by Mary Parker



Walker Church Council

July 29, 2014


Present: Lulu Philips, Mary Laurel True, Mary Parker, Allyson Hayward, Al Hildenbrand, K.C. Bretzke, Greg Garman, Willow Cordes-Eklund, Steve Sandberg, Jan Werness, Nancy Larsen.


The minutes were approved as read.


Lulu gave the financial report. We continue to spend more than we take in. With this in mind we are planning fundraisers for the fall. The fall Art Fair will be Saturday November 22 and Sunday November 23. The Rummage Sale will be October 23 - 26. The Silent Auction Dinner and Dance will be Saturday December 13.


Al reported that the parsonage is ready to sell. The proposal to sell is being considered by the Board of Church Location and Building. They have not made a decision.


K.C. reported that the Staff Parish Relations Committee has not met. She requested more timely church council minutes a reminder.


Al reported for the Trustees that there are aspects of the new building that are not functional and are under warranty. This has reported to the proper person, who is stonewalling.


Greg reported for the Kitchen Cabinet that there will be a Community Meal Tuesday, August 19. Walter will stage a necessary inspection of the kitchen when he gets back. 


Steve Sandberg gave a glowing report of the activities of the Sunday School. He is still looking into coordinating with another church on a teen service project. There should a Sunday School presence on the Walker Church web site to reflect what is going on. 


Mary Parker said that there will a preview of coming attractions for upcoming Celebrations on Sunday August 24. There will be a guest speaker once s month. There is a calendar of the church year posted in the sanctuary.


Mary Laurel True introduced herself as a Powderhorn community member who would like to help us market the church space for increased income and greater community involvement. Greg stated that there is a tension between marketing and living our mission. Jennifer feels the burden of making policy decisions because no one has coordinated this. We need to make policy so Jennifer can mange the rentals on a day to day basis. Al stated that the Trustees need Mary Laurel True's expertise in pricing. We need a fee schedule for Jennifer that is specific. 


Allyson asked how do we get the word out about Walker? We need to redesign the web site so Jim Feldman can execute the changes. We need to pay attention to local print media like Southside Pride. We should ask people who rent the space for feedback and ask them to spread the word. Steve said maybe we could reach out to the Somali community through Mary Laurel True's connections at Augsburg College, where she works in community outreach. We should form partnerships with groups in the community. We also need to reach out to young people. We discussed year long themes - " Come back to Walker!" "Walker is back!"


The meeting was adjourned.


Respectfully submitted,

Nancy Larsen

Church Council Secretary





August 13, 2014


Present: Lulu Philips, Jennifer Gahnstrom, Jan Werness


Taxable income -

We discussed what rental income may be taxable.  Quick calculations estimate that we would have to earn $28,000/yr in rental income that is not directly related to the church mission before we would owe taxes.  This is based on formula that calculates amount of promissory note ($250,000) as percentage of building value ($3.5 million).  A separate calculation would need to be done for parsonage if we were to earn non-mission rental income from it.  See attached memo.   Events committee and/or trustees should develop list of mission-related actitivies so this would not have to be decided on a case by case basis.  List will need to be reviewed by both trustees and finance.  Bookkeeping will have to keep track of taxable income.


Empty Bowls -

Jan will redraft a fiscal agency contract for empty bowls and get it out to committee.


All church meeting re finances -

We looked at Sept 21st as possible date, but there may be a conflict with a rental that day.  Jennifer will check.  Jennifer drafted exhibit for all church meeting and will put it in final form before meeting.

The meeting needs to be listed in the bulletin with a general statement about the topic. People can contact any committee member with concerns or questions or suggestions.


Deposits -

Jennifer will train committee members on how to do Sunday deposits. 


Minutes by Jan Werness



Trustees Meeting Minutes

August 13, 2014


Those present:  Jennifer Gahnstrom, Al Hildenbrand, Wayne Bailey, Jim Stark, Harlan Seelhoff.


Minutes were read and approved.


Jennifer presented the updated financials.  An All-Church meeting to discuss the dwindling reserve fund is in the works for the Fall.  The nature of rentals was discussed.  The Financial Committee has researched tax regulations and asked the Trustees to develop a list of types of renters that are missional.  The Trustees feel the Walker CUMC Mission Statement of long standing, "Build caring community, nurture spirituality and work for peace with justice and mercy", is so clear that the better approach will be for the minds of the Financial Committee to develop the recipe of both groups, individuals and entities that do fit the Mission Statement (especially "build caring community"), as well as the a recipe list of the types of rental situations that are clearly not "missional".  This will permit the tracking of income from such non-missional rentals so as not to exceed the allowed income limit for taxation purposes.  The Trustees will approve the list.


Use of space within the new building was considered with respect to the massage therapists in the extended Community.  Logistics of storage of associated massage equipment was considered.  Sarah Dagg has not yet examined using the new Walker space, per Jennifer's report.  Sarah is comfortable over at the Parsonage, and doesn't really have to move until the Parsonage sale is further along. 


(confidential….) it was moved and seconded that a stay in the Parsonage will be of limited duration.  Passed.


The HVAC system has been tended to by Trane and Raypak.  Progress on warranty service has occured and the outcome is hopeful.


The Parsonage sale has been approved by the UMC District Superintendent and we are waiting for the UM Conference Board of Church, Location and Building to give Walker its approval.


Dianne O'Donnell has agreed to be the realtor for the sale of the Parsonage.  It was moved and seconded that Walker use Dianne O'Donnell as the realtor.  Passed.


Dianne O'Donnell suggested we use Adel Gardner as the Parsonage sale staging decorator if Adel can do this with payment for service tied to the closing of the sale of the Parsonage.  Moved, seconded and passed.

Activity surrounding the water incursion into the building, especially the basement, has run its course.  Watson-Forsberg has picked up its dehumidifier and the basement is dry, for the present, but then, we are in the middle of a very low rainfall period that is over six weeks long.  Time will tell.


Minutes by Al Hildenbrand


                                                                        Communications Task Force Meeting Minutes

Thursday, August 21, 9:00 am



Al Hildenbrand                                               

Debra Ramage                                               

Steve Sandberg                                             

Willow Cordes-Eklund

Jennifer Gahnstrom

Not present:   Jim Feldman 

Non-humans present (that we knew of): Koby


We discussed the following topics, not necessarily in this order:

·       Whether to have agenda at our meetings, whether to keep minutes and publish them, whether to have a chair internally (ie, to “run” meetings)

·       Whether to have a chair externally (ie, a contact person)

·       The issues around the weekly email newsletter, especially whether to publish all or part or none of it on the website

·       Facebook Page – who are admins and editors, who should be added as new editors, how we can better use Facebook

·       The website as it is now, and the changes Jennifer had recently made and how we could get various messages out in the immediate future

·       The website, what changes we may want to make in the near future, what perceived needs it was not meeting, what it’s really for

·       What roles various members of the task force want to do and are able to do

o   Steve wants to make the website a useful tool in bringing families to Walker who are looking for Sunday School and youth activities. He said he knows “people do check out church websites.” The TF agreed that ours may not be attractive or accessible enough to stand out.

o   Steve also wants the TF to ensure events are publicized in a way to help them be successful.

o   Willow wants to discuss internal communication infrastructure, ie face-to-face communications and how we relate to the wider community, ie flyering or canvassing the neighborhood or other outreach methods.

o   Deb wants to do website work, and social media, and outreach. She feels she is not as good at informal face-to-face communication and is glad there are people on the TF who want to do that 

o   Al also wants to do social media and website work and to learn more about them

o   Jennifer wants more photos, more outreach to younger people

·       The current database and directory and if and if so how we may want to change it in the medium-term future


We made the following decisions and took the following actions:

·       We decided to make an informal agenda at the start of each meeting and to rotate the job of facilitator.

·       Deb suggested having a publicly stated “chair” of the task force so there would be a point of contact, and possibly rotating that role every 6 or even 3 months. No agreement was reached.

·       Steve Sandberg and Deb Ramage were added as new Editors to the Facebook Page. (The other TF members are already either Admins or Editors.) We informally decided we needed more pictures. And video. Deb suggested everyone should share the posts on their own timelines to increase the “reach”.

·       We took immediate steps to advertise the upcoming event featuring the Socaholix.

·       We will discuss Willow’s interest in improving internal face-to-face communications infrastructure at a future meeting, probably the next one.

·       Al agreed to discuss with Jim Feldman if he would be amenable to the TF converting the website to Wordpress and if his site could continue to host it in that case.  Al and Deb are taking this offline as a project and will report back to the TF.

·       We agreed to meet again on Thursday, September 4 at 9:30 am.


Minutes by Debra Ramage


Trustees Meeting Minutes

Sept 10, 2014


Those present:  Jennifer Gahnstrom, Al Hildenbrand, Wayne Bailey, Jim Stark, Harlan Seelhoff, Ed Ed Mueller, Tom Manley, Greg Garmen, Walter Lockhart.


Minutes of the previous meeting were read and approved.


Dianne O'Donnell met with Al Hildenbrand Tuesday after Singers and laid out the documents for the Walker Trustees  - signing the documents, including understanding about Tom Manley's role during showings of the Parsonage, TISH inspection, listing online, Adel Gardner as suggested stager, was discussed after a motion was made and seconded for Al Hildenbrand to sign the documents.  The motion was approved unanimously.


Jennifer presented an updated rental policy with a mission statement included.  Walter will develop an affirmative non-discrimination clause to add. 


The financial report was presented and discussed.


Al and Harlan reported on the morning's experience with the RayPak manufacturer's representative, Tim Troutt, and the representative, Steve Mountin, of the local supplier, Walter's Climate.  After replacing the Versa IC circuit board and relocating the temperature sensor on the supply pipe to the domestic hot water holding tank heat exchanger from near the tank to beside the tee on the boiler supply pipe, it was found that the boiler could not be configured and run.  At the end of several hours of troubleshooting, the RayPak factory lab was contacted, where a lab rep configured a lab model of the same boiler and discovered that a fault in the IC chip embedded control software.  The boiler was then temporarily configured back to the faulting state we had, and a promise of new software embedded in a new replacement Versa IC circuit board was promised at an undetermined time in the future.  Quote Tim Troutt, "It's no wonder that you were having problems."


The history of the Pump #1 Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) tripping upon detection of "low voltage" was recalled and discussed.  It was proposed that voltage dip coinciding with the roof top unit compressor motor start inrush current might be the culprit.


Final bill from Watson Forsberg for $6,538.60 for the building of the Church was considered for payment.  Payment is suspended for the present, as there are outstanding problems still.


Discussion of licensing of Kitchen as a commercial kitchen occured.


Wayne volunteered to contact Adel Gardner to solicit a proposal to contract for the staging of the Parsonage during the process of offering the parsonage for sale.


Minutes by Al Hildenbrand


Minutes from Events Task

Thurs, Sept 11, 2014


Steve, Jennifer, Greg and Mary in attendance.


* Music following Community meal on Sept 16 will be provided by DJ Santanero, who is Juan Nieves, Ignacio’s brother. Ignacio’s wife Patricia will contribute a Mexican dish of some kind to our Community meal this month.

Greg and Ignacio are leafleting the neighborhood this week with flyers about the meal and the dance.

Steve has notified KFAI about this event and it will be announced on air.


Greg suggested a Halloween Costume Party. We discussed the idea with enthusiasm and decided it would work best on Saturday Nov. 1, and that we will try to get Salsabrosa to play for it. If that band cannot do it, then Steve has another contact for a salsa band through Mary Laurel. This band might also play on Day of the Dead…or on one OR the other!

As soon as we know if we have a band, we will begin advertising this dance.


Potential Dance on Oct 18 was cancelled.


Steve is working on getting Brass Messengers for Nov 28 and South Side Aces for December 13.


We discussed having Mardi Gras celebration on Mardi Gras, which will be Feb. 17th. This date coincides with Community Meal and we thought we could have a New Orleans type of meal and we will ask Dave West to head up a Dixie Land Jazz ensemble again for the dance. Mary will ask Dave and Mary also would like to have games for adults set up in the narthex during this celebration.


Mary is going to prepare a little synopsis of an “ad campaign” for Walker for the Council Meeting on Sept 30.


People who can post to Walker’s Facebook page: Walter, Steve S., Deb Ramage, Al Hildenbrand, Willow Cordes-Eklund, Jera Peterson.


We changed our meeting day to Wednesdays…every other Wednesday at 9:30 AM…next meeting is Sept 24 and Mary will not be there.


Minutes by Mary Parker



Sunday Celebration Committee Meeting Minutes

September 14, 2014


Present: Mary Parker, chair. Howard Kranz, Dianne O’Donnell, Walter Lockhart, Sally Kuehn, Bonita Blumenauer, Emily Peabody, Terry Roos, Janet Skidmore, Steve Sandberg



Discussed Guest Speaker plan with Walter. Walter agreed to contact CM Cano and invite her to speak at the Celebration Service on Oct 12.


Discussed idea of changing time and day of Celebration Committee so Walter is able to attend regularly.  No change made yet.


Decided that Celebration Committee will do a special service about Pagan Yule on the fourth Sunday of Advent…Dec 21. Walter will have a short “sermonette” on that day.

Decided that Celebration Committee will work on a Christmas pageant with Walter for Christmas Eve service.


Set dates for the Creation Dance choreographed and directed by Janet Skidmore. The dance will be our Invocation on Nov 23, Nov 30 and Dec 7. Janet will set rehearsals with the group who has indicated a desire to dance!


Discussed the dates which Celebration Committee will be responsible for in the upcoming year:

Nov 2: Day of the Dead

Dec 21: Yule

Wednesday, Feb 18: Ash Wednesday

March 22: Ostara


Began planning for Nov 2 Day of the Dead. We will be making props for the service on Oct 14 in the Sunday School room, beginning at 5 PM.


We will be decorating for Samhain, Halloween Costume Dance and Day of the Dead on Tues, Oct 28 at 5:30.


Discussed Halloween Costume Party/Dance and began planning for it.


Discussed Mardi Gras plans for Tues, Feb. 17. We plan to have New Orleans style food for the Community Meal and Dixieland Jazz for the dance after the meal. Also games in the narthex.


Minutes by Mary Parker


Minutes of Finance Committee Meeting- September 17, 2014


Present were:  Church administrator Jennifer Gahnstrom, Pastor Walter Lockhart, committee chair Lulu Phillips, member Carole Megarry,  K.C. Bretzke,  SPPR chair, and Debra Ramage. 

The minutes of the meeting of August 13, 2014 were approved.


The Committee invited Debra Ramage to make her proposal regarding work on a new Walker Church website.  She referenced a program known as Wordpress which is commonly used by other non-profits, including churches, which Al Hildrenbrand could install.  She offered to work at $20 per hour and thought that perhaps $400 would get the project done, or at least close to done.  She indicated a willingness to be flexible as to her rate and the possibility that she would donate some time.  She also indicated it might be necessary to request additional fees.  Deb left the meeting and the committee discussed the matter, which included concern about the tightness of funds but the need to improve the website and make use of the considerable energy that the communications task force has brought to bear on the need to get the Walker name out into the community.  A committee member volunteered a $400 donation to allow Deb to go to work on this project.


The Empty Bowls fiscal agency agreement was signed and we will receive $3000 into our meals fund.


The Financial reports were reviewed and approved.


Walter informed the committee that the Trustees have decided not to pay the $6,539 billed by Watson Forsberg, considering that boiler and water in the basement issues remain unresolved.


We reviewed the Rental and Building Use Policy for September 2014 and the Conference policies about leasing space to third parties.  We also discussed the work done by Lulu Phillips and Jan Werness on Unrelated Business Income and possible tax implications.  It was suggested that if a regular, substantial, rental arrangement appears, we ought to get advice from a CPA or tax attorney knowledgeable on these issues.  Walter noted similar concerns and need for professional advice as to kitchen rentals and possible conflicts in city policies and regulations on issues such as who must carry liability insurance.


The committee reviewed the apportionments calculations and noted that we were not paying them.  For the time being, it appears that the Conference will tolerate this situation.  Walter suggested a further meeting on this topic at a future date.


The committee turned to the topic of what to do regarding the persistent shortfall between income and expenses, which is now an average of $3,700 per month for 2014.  Depending on what funds other than reserves might be tapped,  we could be in crisis mode of not being able to pay bills in a matter of 5-10 months.  Lulu expressed frustration and the belief that a systemic change will need to be made, including significant changes in staff time and salaries.  Walter noted the need for the District Superintendent to be advised by November if the church cannot afford a ¾ time pastor for the following June appointments.   Discussion followed as to how to bring this matter before the entire church.  Church meetings were set for October 15 and 29 at 6:30 p.m.


It was noted that rummage sale assembly starts October 20, Monday.  Sale starts Thursday October 23.  The rummage work schedule will go out September 28.


Art Fair is set for November 22 and 23.  KC volunteered to attempt to coordinate vendors by means of contacting former coordinators of the vendors.  It was noted that this may be difficult, given the passage of two years without Art Fairs and that vendors may have moved on.  The possibility exists that the Art Fair may be scaled down or canceled.  Carole Megarry and Nancy Larsen will coordinate the food and kitchen, assuming it goes forward.


Minutes by Carole Megarry


Walker Church Council

September 30, 2014


Present: Greg Garman, Jan Werness, Wayne Bailey, Steve Sandberg, Mary Parker, Al Hildenbrand, K.C. Bretzke, Walter Lockhart, Deb Ramage, Nancy Larsen.


The minutes were approved as corrected. We will omit the statement that there will be a guest speaker once a month during celebration from the minutes.


There will be two all church meetings during the month of October on the 15th and the 29th. We will address the $3700 budget shortfall we have each month. Plans to meet this crisis will come out of the values of the community. 


Al stated that we are going ahead with plans to sell the parsonage. Dianne O'Donnell is the realtor.

The asking price is $210,000.


Struggles with the heating system of the new church are ongoing.


K.C. reported for the Staff Parish Relations Committee. They have been working on a safer church policy, which they will bring before the whole church. Allison will ask a speaker to address the church on the topic. SPRC is also getting feedback from the staff about what they can and can't do with reduced hours. 


Steve reported that Jera continues to do a great job with the Sunday School. Greg asked about the possibility of adult education classes and a Spanish conversation group. 


Mary mentioned upcoming events: a pagan Yule service, a Christmas pageant, Day of the Dead, Ash Wednesday, spring equinox, Bioneers, Death Cafe, movie night and a cabaret. Also, we are starting a new lending library. Mary had planned to put the bookshelf for the library in the teen room, but Walter objected because the teens had not been consulted. Deb, as a representative of the Communications Task Force, agreed to talk to various groups to come to a consensus about the location of the book shelf. 


Deb is currently in the process of redesigning the Walker web site. Walter stated that when we design the flyer for the Rummage Sale, we should add the dates of upcoming events such as the Art Fair. Also, the task force needs to generate privacy policies as to the web site and emails which would be approved by the church council.


Greg wondered if we need a kitchen cabinet. Walter replied that we need to be in conversation about how to use the new space.


Walter gave the pastor's report. We have to determine how to move forward as a small church. He added that Walker as an institution has a higher priority than him being a part of the institution. After he spends 8 hours preparing for Celebration and being there, he has 16 hours left. If there are multiple meeting during the week he must attend, that takes most of the time. K. C. wondered if Walter could have two appointments, thus two salaries and a living wage. We will consult the district superintendent in November.


There is the possibility of a Walker community garden on Bloomington Avenue in a vacant lot.


The meeting was adjourned.


Respectfully submitted,

Nancy Larsen

Church Council Secretary


Events Task Force   

Minutes for Tues, Oct. 7, 10:30 AM


Present: Steve Sandberg, Greg Garman, Anne Tiller, Jennifer Gahnstrom,

Mary Parker


Old Business: We talked about the past event, Socaholix Dance. Steve thinks about 100 people attended. It cost about $800 ($600 for the band and $200 for the sound tech). After the take at the door and the contributions from Steve and Mary Laurel, Walker broke even.

Excellent PR event! This event is categorized in finances under “Programming”, not fundraising, because this event is “outreach”.



New Business:

Advertising for Alondra Cano and Deanna Standing Cloud is complete.


Jennifer made flyers and handouts for Immigration Vigil on Oct 17. Mary will announce in church on the 12th and pass out flyers. The wording on this handout is not to be changed.


Day of the Dead Costume Dance: “El Cachorro” will play. We guarantee them $400, plus half of the execss we take at the door. Mary pledges $200 toward this expense.

$10 donation, no one turned away. 7:30 - 10:30 PM. Child friendly.

Refreshments: popcorn. Mary will bring a Day of Dead sheet cake for 100.

We will ask people to bring left over Halloween candy.

Anne will purchase La Croix sparkling water in cans which we can sell.

Mary is creating posters for this event. Deb R. will put info out on Facebook.


Flyers are being made to distribute in neighborhood. These will include information on 1. Rummage sale  2. Dia de los Muertos Costume Dance

3. Fireroast Mt. Boys concert  4. Community Meals


Mary will contact Southside Family School to see if we can get a speaker on Civil Rights for our Jan. 18 Celebration Service.


Minutes by Mary Parker



All Church Meeting

October 15, 2014

Notes by Lulu Philips, Finance Chair


The meeting was called by the Walker Finance Committee, because of an increase in our monthly expenses that leaves an average shortfall of about $3,000 a month.  This number varies quite a bit from month to month, since some expenses are one-time or yearly.  The shortfall could go up or down in the future, but its size is such that Walker needs to make significant changes in its income, expenses, or both to avoid running out of operating funds around April of next year.  If we spend our capital funds on operating expenses, we would run out of money next summer.


The shortfall also doesn't include about $1200 per month in apportionments that we owe to the United Methodist Minnesota Annual Conference.  We have not paid our apportionments for several years, since we have not had enough income to do so.


The main differences in expenses between 2011, when we had a balanced budget, and 2014 are increases in expenses for custodial (about $450), building insurance ($750), modest salary increases ($500), electricity ($600), and phone lines ($250), for a total of $2,550 a month in increased expenses. 


The main differences in income between 2011 and 2014 are a decrease in rental income of about $950 per month, and a decrease in rental income from the parsonage (net of expected expenses) of $400, for a total of about $1350 in reduced income.


About 30 members of the Walker community attended the meeting, and discussed ideas, which I have categorized as follows:

1. Reduce staff

2. Increase fundraising

3. Increase donations

4. Increase rentals


One key consideration is that we have put our parsonage on the market, and can expect to have over $100,000 in cash after it has been sold.  The consensus at the meeting was that we should use that money to transition to a sustainable financial structure in some way.  Just using the money to cover our shortfall would only postpone the time when we would have to develop a sustainable financial structure.


One idea that would affect all four categories of ideas was to increase the membership of the Walker community.  Having a structured and intensive membership campaign would assist in all four categories of ideas.


Reduce Staff

When discussing reducing staff time, it seemed clear that the work done by our staff is necessary to our community.  Therefore we would need to have volunteers from the community step forward to do some of the work currently done by staff.  At the meeting, there was not a consensus that the members present would be able to take on significant additional volunteer work.

For example, if we did not have our part-time custodian, each family in the community would be responsible for cleaning the building for a week each year.


Our administrator currently does the bookkeeping as well as managing the custodian, maintaining a presence in the building, sending a weekly bulletin, and scheduling building use by renters and members.  If we reduce the administrator's hours by having a volunteer do bookkeeping, we would need a volunteer who can devote several hours every week to the bookkeeping.


Our pastor is currently paid for 50% time, and puts in more time than that. If we ask the Annual Conference to appoint a pastor at 33% time, that pastor would likely have two other churches, and would have very limited time for pastoral care and weekly celebration planning at Walker.  Again, we would need very significant volunteer time to take on those responsibilities.


Increase Fundraising

Currently our major fundraisers are a semi-annual rummage sale, a silent auction, and a number of concerts, dances, and other performances.  We could hold more fundraisers if new volunteers would be willing to organize, plan, and staff the fundraisers.  Another possibility would be to expand the current fundraisers and raise more money from them.  Again, this would require an increase in volunteer time.


Increase Donations

An increase in donations from current members of around 50% would make up the current shortfall.  There was a general sense at the meeting that this level of increase is probably not affordable for the current members.  However, if our membership were to increase by 50% or more with a similar range of income levels, this would likely result in the needed increase in donations.  With a beautiful new building, this may be a time to do a major outreach campaign for new members.


Increase Rentals

There were a number of possibilities discussed for increasing rental income.  The consensus is that the building is a terrific space for events that further our mission of building caring community, nurturing spirituality, and working courageously for justice with mercy.  Renting the church for events does require a significant amount of work with potential renters, and then scheduling and managing the use of the building. 


We discussed using some of the money from sale of the parsonage to install a good quality lighting and audio system for the sanctuary.  We discussed whether members should be required to pay for using the building for events.   We do want to keep rentals affordable for our low-income membership and neighbors.

We could hire a wedding planner and promote the use of the building for weddings.  The fee would include an amount to pay the wedding planner.

Some ideas for ongoing non-event type rentals would be developing office space.  Perhaps we could convert the basement into offices, or convert the conference room into a communal office for business people that would have a locked cabinet and bring their own computers to work there.

Other ideas included having a senior day care program, holding cooking classes in the kitchen, or having a charter school in the building.

We could possibly get grants to teach art or other subjects to the community.

Another idea that was raised is partnering with another church community that doesn't have a building.  Rather than rent space to them, actually work together to share the building and split the building expenses.



The members who came to the meeting had a very positive, hopeful outlook.  We are a healthy community that has great potential to grow and become stronger.  At our next meeting on October 29, we plan to decide on a direction to pursue for a new sustainable structure.



All Church Meeting

October 29, 2014


Notetaker: Adel Gardner


Meeting Leader: Lulu Phillips


About 30 in attendance


Juliaʼs opening comments: now is the time to ʻreinvent, revision, take advantage of new

building, find ways to be in communityʼ


Reviewed notes from 1st “Survival” Meeting, some notes missing especially some of the

more long term aspects brought up such as the need for a visioning process, how

Walker is presenting itself as a Methodist Church, how Walker is presenting itself as

exclusively a Christian organization, how Walker has NOT worked specifically for people

who have come and gone recently....., the need to market and/or advertise what is

available in the new building, need to find out how Walker can be a resource and of

service in a meaningful way to the surrounding community


Meeting mostly divided into 4 discussion areas as perceived by Julia as the main

categories from the 1st meeting focusing on short term need for money:

Grow Membership , Reduce Staff/ Reduce Cost, Increase Fundraising/Donations,

Increase Rentals


Grow Membership:


Reviewed Jessieʼs written proposal, which was handed out again in a refined version

from the one at the last meeting, which was primarily in favor of increasing membership

and it was agreed that we need a membership committee.


Some discussion: Vision 1st/ Membership second; Membership is not ALL of the

solution, need to ʻtake a stabʻ at all 4 of the areas suggested from Juliaʼs notes from

previous meeting; there is an inclusiveness issue within the membership issue; the

synergy of doing a variety of things will help all; need to get at nitty gritty details inherent

in the definition of ʻmembershipʼ; need to get a baseline, who are active participants

etc., in Methodist organization measured by how many come on Sunday...; might need

to redefine the concept of membership and look at the huge variety of ways that

organizations create membership programs including dues and benefits


Reduce Staff/ Reduce Cost of building:


People overall agreed (some fervently) that a reduction of the staffing that we have now

will not be in our best interest. Consensus to not cut staff time. Little to no discussion of

building expenses...


Some discussion: Walter has proposed renting out his office (another issue really), will

not be able to increase money without staff; reducing staff always decreases income;

KFAI and HOTB have both laid off staff recently; love member sermons; Walter is

investigating working full time (which is his desire) by working for another church 1/2

time also, have to ask District if we want to use $ from sale of the parsonage for

operating expenses (?)....


Increase Fundraising/Donations:

Increasing Fundraising

Some Discussion:Themed Dinners, “Eat Lower on the Food Chain” Classes offered to

be taught by Deb Ramage; classes in general utilizing the kitchen; need to encourage/

create partnerships particularly with other neighborhood business and organizations;

there are funds for both artists and Walker through the State Arts Board/Constitutional

Amendment Grant(s) for artists to collaborate with Walker on 4 events per year; money

available through schools for the arts facilitated by Walker; Coffee shop, coffee times,

fireside/Coffee times, Open Space; Rummage Sale has brought in about $3,600 in new

building which is significant increase from before (over $1,000 more?) and can still be

increased; Give to The Max Day; a Thrift Store; Redefine meaning of Membership;

fundraise specifically to support mission; can make money/ get donations online,

through Website, Who is going to Website?, How about a separate online promotional

vehicle?; use website to attract (more?) donations via Pay Pal, create promotional

products advertising Walker: t shirts, mugs, hats, each order made to order; partner with

another church for donations i.e.: get rummage leftover from suburban church rummage

sale to sell at Walker; clothing exchange idea from another idea seen via a van,....


Increasing Donations:


Stewardship 101: Time, Talents, Treasure (Walker has 10 Substantial Giving Units

which possibly make up 80% of total giving); key to attracting new members is to have

missions that people are ʻachingʻ to do; need more opportunities to give ie: donation box

at community meals particularly for Walkerites that are attending; decide what Walker

wants to be, wants to be known for, is good at...; what separates us from other

nonprofits?; people looking for a spiritual community that cares about them, to be a part

of and contribute; ʻchristianityʼ as an issue; do we need to bust through the negative

cast of what we are NOT to a more positive approach of what we ARE in order to

breathe new life into what we DO?; important to figure out what we want to say to

others; ʻchurchʻ as an issue; how about concept of ʻsustainableʻ membership and

options such as auto deduct; make it ʻeasierʻ to give; sliding fee scale based on income;

some guidance as to appropriate amount of giving and/or what is needed would be nice;

we need to know who we are and what we want to be and then look at how we can be

sustainable; would be good to discuss giving with new members....Agreed that there were many possible ways to improve and/or increase fundraising and donations.



Reviewed Kimʼs written proposal of an Adult Day Center, solid income generation, state

is pushing for more, funding available, state pays $81/day per senior, job creation and

volunteer opportunities, can flyer/go door to door /Survey to find out need and

preferences within community, 28 Day Centers in Metro area; another issue is what

happens to foster kids when they grow out of the system, possible job training

opportunity and ʻhome baseʻ for them; we need to have a vision; need a rental task

force; how about the Hispanic community?; lots of desire and rentals currently going on

especially events for Sat. nights through the Hispanic Community; Ignacio has been a

great resource and help with interpreting; need to reach out to community; promote as

an event center, wedding venue, meeting place, co-working and collaboration space, art

space, alternative health space, music venue and performance space, retreat center;

need more open ended characterization of spaces to increase rentals and use of space

at times when it is not currently in demand; need to consider needs of church members

for space use; maybe need to minimize needs of church members to be more viable

financially or consider issue of use policies due to the reality of costs....

Consensus that we need a Rentals Committee


To all who were present at the meeting: Please forgive me if my notes are incorrect or

pertinent information is missing due to distraction, participation, misunderstanding and/

or bias. Send me an email and I will add what is missing to the original notes.

Speaking as the lay leader, which I have not done as yet, I believe that in order for

Walker to become the vital community that it could be, the foundational structure of the

organization needs to be examined with care, and concern for all those involved now

and in the future. Now is the time to GO FORWARD; not backward, and become the

kind of spiritual community we can all be proud of and support and encourage others to

be a part of with us. It makes me tired just thinking of it and I am not even sure if I am

willing or up to the task. Maybe others feel the same. I want us to all be in the same

boat with Julia at the end of her summary of the last meeting but I do not want us to be

floating down ʻde nialʼ in order to do it.



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